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http://hehe2.net/thedarkside/microsoft/even-mor...
for even more tinfoil. priceless comments, as always.
You'd be hard pressed to find any motherboard, gadget, or appliance that doesn't use Foxconn components in them. My Amiga 500's ports? Foxconn.
Many Lusers are like walking comic figures. It's as if the portal between the real and the comic world broke up and suck the lusers into the real world.
Their whining is so unreal.
Reminds me of:
"Yes! I've lost almost ten pounds now. You see what I mean?? I totally know how it felt to be a Jew in the Holocaust now! "
Cartman from South Park
Vista x64 with 4 GB of RAM can't do this. It's totally lame. When I click on the "Recycle Bin" 50 times, I only get one window. Stupid M$. Windoze is totally broken.
I envy this guy. In HIS world, releasing a mobo with a faulty ACPI-for-Linux BIOS is "terrorism" whereas in MY world, "terrorism" usually involves guns and explosives, the murding and maiming of civilians, hostages, etc etc.
I despise people from his world.
"My girlfriend had a similar workflow on her Dell laptop."
dude - that wasn't a work flow
you basically did what all of us do after were done doing work with out machine.
Wait a minute, an Ubuntu zealot has a girlfriend?!
His girlfriend is his right hand. They're quite attached to one another.
"Burned an Audio CD using Brasero
Resized pictures using Gimp
Organized my music using Rhythmbox
Talked to my friends online using Pigeon
Worked from home using network-manager-vpnc
Watched Youtube videos using Firefox
Bought music online using Amazon MP3 downloader "
OS2 Warp would be able to do this.
" did all of that, without ever opening any consoles or terminals"
WOOOOW
"“There is no equivalent of Microsoft Visual Studio!” - Right because there are just a ton of good projects even developed with that. If that was the case, why is it that Windows administrators constantly reboot their boxes and can almost never find the cause of problems? Unfortunately due to restrictions I can’t cite specifics, but in big business this happens almost always. Closed source little companies can *definitely* not provide enterprise level support, no matter how big of contract they sell you. For that matter, how about since 1996 or so the world has changed. Your applications should be web based and the backend should run on Linux."
I have read Slashdot since almost a decade now, and even the COLA newsgroup (comp.os.linux.advocacy) and the freetards can still amaze with their inane stupiditiy. They have really this amazing ability to constantly write and say things "normal people" could only take as satire or lunacy.
Jonathan Swift would have a hard time with the freetards.
haiku or even syllable will soon be able to do this (and without the blue lady ibm behind their backs)
Hahahahahahaha, I do/setup that in what? An hour tops?
"I did all of that, without ever opening any consoles or terminals. "
OH MY, 1993 Called! They want your GUI! Now!
dear linux cultists: stop telling people they're broken.
I ran into the Gcompris thing a year or two ago. I was very disappointed to see such a militant asshat attitude from people purveying software meant for the little'uns. I am not about to recommend switching our school division over to Linux just so we can unlock the special features that are only free from a certain point of view.
And neither would any other sane sysadmin, so the attitude is all for naught from my POV.
Tux Paint is a bigger hit with the kiddies anyway. Unfortunately they have yet to implement a "Save As" feature, which makes setting it up in an multiuser environment a bit of a kludge. I wrote to their developer a long while back, and he replied something to the effect of it being a difficult feature to implement. I'm sure they'll get to it eventually.
As for me. I spent a weekend at the beach with Sabayon on a Thinkpad T41. After getting fed-up with the usual crappy infighting between KDE and Gnome menus (half the new software I installed not showing up in KDE and double entries for most of it in Gnome) I thought back to the LinuxHater and wondered just why in the hell I was putting up with this sub par behaviour? I took 10 minutes to dump an XP image to the disk and I was back to having a clean, fast, responsive desktop.
It's like the (middle-aged) tech from our wireless provider said to me when I told him I was trying out Linux on my work laptop. He said that he hated computers enough that he felt it absurd to be mucking around with an OS just for the sake of mucking around with it when he already had something that worked (for him) perfectly.
His words, as well as those on this blog, make me wonder what my own motivations are for engaging in what always ends up being a substandard experience at best. I guess I just never learn that the grass isn't greener on the other side, no matter how much I want it to be.
Comments in this blog also lead me to the Unix Haters Handbook. That was an interesting weekends read.
PS: Our content filter blocks Disqus. This makes for much less entertainment during the workday. Maybe I'll have to start constantly rebooting my boxes for fun instead...
Just as you would go to your local blacksmith to repair some item or implement made of iron, you will go to your local, neighbourhood computer programmer to ask them to fashion a tool or repair a problem with their software. If it is closed source, your local programmer can't fix it! Who is grandma going to turn to when she wants a new feature added to her window manager so she can have rotatable and scalable desktop icons??
Sounds good right? However, what are the various problems with this idea? Discuss.
1. Commercial Windows and Mac solutions "just work" pretty much out of the box. There's no need to find a local programmer.
2. When a customer pays for a particular piece of software/hardware, they want the vendor that they paid to stand behind the product and, generally speaking, that model works well for support. If they can't get it to work, they return it. That provides a powerful incentive to fix the problem. They don't need to pay a local programmer.
3. Let's say, for sake of argument, that the customer wants to take their PC to a local programmer. Who the fuck is their "local programmer"? How do they identify someone who is qualified to fix their problem? Similarly, since knowledge of how to fix a give problem is not distributed evenly or locally, what do you do when you can't find a qualified "local programmer"? Programming some things is not the same as being a TV repair man or a plumber. It often requires very specific knowledge and, even if the programmer can identify the offending piece of code, making a fix can be dicey. Certainly more dicey than having the original vendor fix the problem. It all goes back to efficiency.
4. Promoting local fixes doesn't mean that those fixes will get pushed back into to the community.
Bingo!
Oh noes!! Do you realise what you've just done?? In 3 sentences, you just beat the living shit out of the entire concept of open source!!
Wait, is it still breathing? *listens* Nope, that was RMS choking on his own shit.
Plus, in this age of conspiracy and paranoia (which won't be going away), I sure as hell wouldn't trust some local geek to muck with my PC. Just who certifies this person as being trustworthy?
I suppose we'll have Guilds for that...
The problem with the utopia concept is it's not one that open source can fix, because it's not a computer problem. It's an entire social mindset of a society where everything is pre-packaged, shrink-wrapped, mass-marketed crap, and the majority of consumers revel in it.
Nothing changes unless something drives the change.
Ok. Let me get this straight. The guy bought a new phone, but can’t use it because it sucks so fucking bad. Typical. You keep hacking at it and call me to let me know if you can resolve the issue with the dialer.
I have had numerous windows mobile phones over the years. They are not perfect. A lot of the times they have little glitches here and there. For example, even with my WM6 phone, the alarm setting screen comes up randomly sometimes after the phone has been in use for weeks without a reset. Generally, I just shut the phone down and start it back up and its fine for a few weeks. An inelegant yet functional solution. It’s kind of gay yet consistently I find that I can use it to make calls and I can send and receive push email, all my contacts and appointments and tasks are synched over the air with Exchange as soon as I enter them (from either the phone or outlook).
Granted, I can’t get into the code of the OS. But they do have a SDK and developer tools which look just like the developer tools that I would use to write a Windows application. I can swap out the fucking kernel but I can put together and debug little applications very rapidly.
I feel bad for this douche bag. He just threw away a few hundred bucks based on some quack ideology. If I walked into an AT&T or T-Mobile store and they tried to sell me a phone that I had to basically build myself I would probably climb up on the counter and take a dump right there.
Defective by design indeed, do these FSF people even use their computers for anything? Honestly, this is the kind of shit that happens when you mix politics with technology and paranoid lunacy.
Justice is coming!
http://zeusville.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/print...
Most of these zealots who claim to be 100% Linux still use Windows because they know there are plenty of times Linux will be inadequate insofar as actually getting things done.
He's lying. He doesn't want to admit it, but he's lying.
Most of these zealots who claim to be 100% Linux still use Windows because they know there are plenty of times Linux will be inadequate insofar as actually getting things done.
Of course they do. Anybody who claims to use Linux on the desktop full-time is either (a) not doing anything substantial, or (b) lying about not using Windows.
"Lots of photo printing services are very cheap now, so my solution is to not worry about the printer. iTunes (I know, not applicable) is something like 19 cents for a 4×6 — if you want to pay a bit more and are doing larger prints, an excellent one is mpix.com"
Typical luser answer: if it doesn't work you don't really need it.
OR YOU COULD JUST DUMP LINUX
He already has a partition of xp and someone suggests that he dumps the printer. Something is seriously wrong with these people.
That reminds me of the zealots who suggested I buy a new wireless card when I was having problems getting Mepis and Ubuntu working on my laptop.
Or my favorite piece of FOSS-tastic advice: when I point out that Linux is pitiful for gaming, I'm told to buy an XBox 360. (Which the last time I checked is proprietary. Sounds pretty condtradictory and incongruous with the wacky tenets of "FOSS."
Good. Maybe it'll finally kill off all the .03% of LINUX servers left in service since the introduction of MicroShaft Winners Server 2K (dot 2)
Linux has a noacpi option so it can investigate these problems.
How many people have had windows 2000 or the like fail from the same kind of error. Note Windows 2000 NT and ME are all handled special by that board. There could be a lot more people with problems.
Now ButtFuzz where is the way that you can correct that same defect for windows.
Sorry lot more than .03% of servers are out there. It only slows linux guys down until they find it. Same method he used could be used on any Linux with a acpi issue that is bios suspected.
If you cannot find a way to correct it in windows its another case that windows is limited and more open to be crippled by motherboard.
Here it is FooButt: $
These things don't happen on windows because of these green cotton papery things. It's what you pay for. It's what makes the developers give a shit about your OS. It's what you trade in for spare time to disassemble BIOSes and post on zit-faced forums.
The "bug" has been around since 2006, the reason why it shows up only now is because "the linux guys" only figured out ACPI sysctl since ... ehr ... well, not yet that's for sure. They've been declaring it stable since 2007. Yeah right.
Good for you. With Windows its like that: either it works, or its broken. And if it doesn't - I don't care why, I want my money back, that is all, thank you.
P.S. Are Foxconn motherboards really popular? Because, its the first time I hear about this brand, honestly. ASUS, MSI, Gigabyte, mm.. EliteGroup, even TomatoBoard (well, this company is long dead, but whatever). But Foxconn? Who's that?
So now solution is simple. For ACPI Linux will just be Windows.
Now prepare for pain. Now to attack linux you will have to remove a windows versions. Linux can keep on changing windows versions or using ACPI patching. So its a zero win. So I hope none of you guys are ever hoping to run old versions of window again on new hardware. Or you better have a way to manually work around ACPI issues.
Only one catch with it works or its broken. Its not that simple. How do you tell the difference between a intermittent crash caused by video card bios or some other hardware bit.
Be warned same line could be used with 2000 and NT ok they were not support by that motherboard. Sorry motherboard works perfectly so no refund. In time XP as well.
Its not broken if its to spec. And its spec does not say it supports linux so linux guy cannot return it. Any motherboard that does not include the OS you want to run on it your stuck.
Nice base line. So if a motherboard says Vista only by that and you get a downgrade to XP and it does not work you are stuck too. XP not working does not make the hardware defective since vista works.
Some how I am puting foxconn on my company list not to touch with a 10 foot pole.
About NT/2k: no, I don't want to run those, really. XP is much better. By the time they drop support for XP (am I imagining stuff, of did MS promise to support it until 2014?) I'm probably not going to want to run XP too.
P.S. I do agree with you, however, that this whole stuff - BIOS working differently under different OSes kinda sucks. Companies can do this. You can stop buying their products. Freedom.
If there is one then this problem is a minor annoyance. If there is not one. This can in time become a major problem.
Issue is product is not broken. So no returning it if you buy it by mistake your stuck with it. Ok if laws everywhere said something like this made the board returnable it would not be a issue either. In that case I would suspect the motherboard maker would fix BIOS so there boards were not getting returned.
Go sucks Linux balls.
Yes, you can also do it with kgdb, but the installation is <sigh> a bit trickier.
But pull your head out of your ass and listen: These things are simply not going to happen on windows. It's cash-driven ... get it ?
So I hope none of you guys are ever hoping to run old versions of window again on new hardware.
Unlike linux desktop distros, which cover all the new hardware.
You just don't get it, do you. The lin"community" can bitch all they want, foxconn has no reason to budge. One issue with windows and they'll be force-feeding you the update within the hour. So, if you want them to update the bios, file a bug-report for windows and you can start disassembling again.
Ha. Haha. No, this is really funny. If (say) your DVD player doesn't play some disk or stops working altogether what do you do? Is it a) you devise a way to pull it's firmware out and debug it, or b) you get it to the service center?
>> But pull your head out of your ass and listen: These things are simply not going to happen on windows. It's cash-driven ... get it ?
If such shit happens with Windows, you a) ask them (Foxconn, Microsoft) to fix it, if they can't you b) return the board, if they refuse you have two options: 1) sue them, or if you can't be bothered because of one lousy MB 2) tell people Foxconn boards are defective and don't work with Windows. Because Windows users are vast majority, Foxconn will most probably listen to them.
They're the main audience, you got that so far. The chances of such a release happening with bad windows bios support is slim, after discovery it would take in the order of an hour to provide an upgrade. That or go bankrupt.
File a bug-report for windows does not work i this case. It was OS targeted system alteration. It also gives the green light to makers to build Linux Only Boards by stuffing the ACPI as well. Nicely prevents the MS claim that box's with Linux on are being pirated to windows.
Any hardware allowed defect like this is a worry.
Remember just because something like this disadvantages Linux now. It sets precedence. The question is not that Linux is effected what else will be effected next.
It's not worrying, your imagination is. Crappy DSDT tables have been around for a while ... I remember the same story for Dell laptops a while back, there's a blacklist somewhere but I can't be arsed to search. This is a fantastic demonstration of communication skills in the linux community. They normally solve this by ignoring the DSDT from bios and using a custom replacement in the kernel. You can even use initrd so you don't have to recompile. It sure is a lot cleaner than how they solved it now. Are you an only child ?
Linux can keep on changing windows versions or using ACPI patching.
Good for them. Maybe the linux support for ACPI will be done before its successor comes along. Or let's say "eventually" - yeah, that's safer.
It sets precedence.
It sure does, the number of Foxconn boards running linux will drop from 7 to 2: one for Ryan to frame in and one for his mom.
Linux only motherboard would nicely force use of Vista Business or better after XP leaves the market. Due to the only way to run windows then would be in the Linux hypervisor. So Nice higher priced version of windows that has to acquired or not be able to run windows.
There are way more effective uses of this kind of lock against Windows users. Where is the windows place to provide ACPI table overrides.
Support for these motherboards with buggy ACPI is in 2.6.26 linux kernel so no work around needed any more. This is the response causes from not providing a Bios update. While Bios updates were being provided might as well use temp cure not long term kernel alterations in the hope the defect would over time cease to exist.
PS windows kernel debugger alone does not solve a acpi issue. Reason OS can be failing to even to get to running the debugger due to the ACPI. Only way to prove it is be able to get the ACPI tables and check them. So run without ACPI function completely and still without checking them you have no clue if the defect is intentional or not.
Problem is you guys don't even know the limits of your tools. There are some problems a kernel debugger is no help at all. Because you cannot run that code section to find out.
Recent Linux kernels already report themselves as being Windows during the OSI check.
Problem is you guys don't even know the limits of your tools. There are some problems a kernel debugger is no help at all. Because you cannot run that code section to find out.
This is an excellent point and I fully agree. But we're running around in circles here.
My point is: no matter what the effect of workaround on linux is, it's influence is zip. These vendors serve MS, not Linux. We all know the reason for that, and that's what I pay for: priority and functionality. Boohoo and cries from lincommunity: yes. Impact from this: none whatsoever. The kernel can pretend to be Mother Theresa for all I care: this illustrates they have no leverage whatsoever. If they continue to implement "solutions" like this, it's going to backfire. There's absolutely nothing stopping them from moving on to another model which gets rid of pesky misID's from Linux.
The implementations they choose is just another hack on a hack. It's not elegant, not thinking forward and has zero impact for the others.
This is just a small example that Linux plays no role in the desktop market, instead of taking lessons they're burying their heads deeper in the ground.
Your problem is that you spend too much time masturbating with the idea that linux some day will take over windows and you do not see the present.
Man you are just full of shit.
http://fixunix.com/kernel/512617-acpi-osi-disas...
So far: Dell, HP, Foxconn, Asus
Do you see the pattern emerging here? The OSI mis-ID will piss off one group: software developers, no matter from what front. They won't blame MS or the MB but Linux for their "solution". Way to go Linux-dev.
Got enough material for an article, LH ? Maybe you could get Darwin involved.
My head almost exploded when I read this one.
What an arrogant, petulant little shit.
Here are some choice quotes:
Foxconn guy:
This board was never certified for Linux. It is only certified for Vista. See URL below.
...
Making idle treats is not going to solve anything.
As already stated this model has not been certified under Linux nor supported.
As you are unhappy with the product- using a non-support operating system nor certified, please contact your reseller for a refund.
...
You are incorrect in that the motherboard is not ACPI complaint. If it were not, then it would not have received Microsoft Certification for WHQL.
Most people at this point would think "fuck, he's right. They didn't actually say they support linux, I just assumed they did. I'd better shut the fuck up before I embarrass myself further"
Enter the clueless fucktard:
The ACPI specs are there for a reason, and broken BIOS's like what is in this motherboard are the reason standard ACPI does not work, I've taken the liberty of filing the report in kernel.org, Red Hat, and Canonical's Ubuntu bug tracking systems, and posting the contents of my kernel error log on my blog, which is in the first several results if you Google search "Foxconn G33M" or "Foxconn G33M-s", "Foxconn Linux", etc...
I'm sure he gives a shit about threats and insults from braindamaged asshat freetard non-customer linux using douches, rather than their ACTUAL customers. Arrogant clueless dipshit.
Microsoft = Microsoft
ACPI != Microsoft
You can't say that because you got certification from Microsoft, your parts support ACPI.
Is that too difficult to understand?
What I am curious as to, is what all you whiners do. Or maybe you just use and experience things.
Hmmmm... Interesting. I've read a lot from the unix haters mailing list. Seems a bit different that this group. Blog? What's that? IM? Who uses that? Oh, people do. That must be it. I should probably go now.
Sure. I'll even grant the fact that Foxconn are deliberately trying to annoy the freetard crowd.
When freetards complain about it, they look UTTERLY PATHETIC.
What everybody else understands is Foxconn (or whoever) is completely free to implement and try to sell whatever the hell they want! If Foxconn decides to make a dodgy implementation of ACPI that services their ACTUAL paying customers, and at the same time, kicking freetards in the nuts, GOOD FOR THEM! They don't owe you shit, and you sound like a fucking loser when you complain.
As the Foxconn guy said, they never said they support freetards and their broken freetard linux OS. Translation: Get lost dipshit, you haven't got a leg to stand on. Bitch and moan all you want, we're too busy listening to our paying customers.
Here is a clue that you'll ignore: Find a solution that people are willing to pay for, then businesses will come knocking on YOUR door instead of the other way around.
Why, also it looks like they're going to fix the issue, due to the communities concerns.
What everybody else understands is Foxconn (or whoever) is completely free to implement and try to sell whatever the hell they want!
Not if it has an ACPI compliant sticker on it, but is not ACPI compliant. That is false advertising, which is illegal in most countries.
If Foxconn decides to make a dodgy implementation of ACPI that services their ACTUAL paying customers
This person was a paying customer.
and at the same time, kicking freetards in the nuts, GOOD FOR THEM!
Ah, this attitude is far worse than any displayed by a Freetard. You have become what you despise.
They don't owe you shit
If you pay for an ACPI complaint motherboard, then you are owed an ACPI compliant motherboard. It really is simple and no amount of hatred from you will change that fact.
and you sound like a fucking loser when you complain.
No, complaining in itself isn't bad. Complaining like an immature school child and resorting to ad-hominem attacks does make you look like a loser, which is what this fucker did.
The sad thing is, if he hadn't thrown around all those accusations, would the Freetards have flocked to the cause and put pressure on the company to fix their BIOS? Now that is a good subject for a rant, and a sad reflection on the Free software community.
Bitch and moan all you want, we're too busy listening to our paying customers.
He was a paying customer.
Here is a clue that you'll ignore
I am not ignoring this, but it has no relevance to the discussion at hand and does not merit the dignity of an answer.
I think what happened was he didn't explicitly go out and buy this board because of ACPI - his PC already had it, and he was looking for a way to complain to the manufacturer about his linux problems with ACPI.
Linux annoying yes but its workable around.
Manufacturer not listening. Foolish. If the MS test is wrong for Linux. What else is wrong in the test. Here is the bad bit he should be complaining to Novel about breach of the MS contract with Novel.
http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD...
search for the Method (OSFL, 0, NotSerialized) and you'll notice that the code which is problematic in Foxconn is identical to that of 2 years ago in multiple boards.
I knew FOSS was slow, but presenting it as breaking-news with multiple coverages of the story, topped with some finger-pointing ... It's been sitting there for at least 2 years !
So, shall we blame this one on "those evil BIOS vendors" ? I think not, pinky.
Die FOSS, die !
The board is odd because maker of board will not provide update.
So nop not dieing.
Next linux kernel is going to start calling itself windows. So yep killing it has just got harder.
Predictable outcome.
Next Linux kernel will not care. Its just doing away with its id when it comes to that section. If you want to screw with it to hell with basically.
So now to nuke Linux will have to nuke windows versions as well.
guz. You are looking at a fragment. As a whole no problem. Fixed now old versions of windows will have to be damaged in bios to effect linux.
Fuck that guy looks creepy.
How can it be? Is the Bazaar model broken?
No! Lies! Hateful lies! You must be an M$ shill, working behind the our back to fail us! The conspiracy between M$ and the consumers must be stopped by any means necessary! I will lead the charge! *goes back to the basement and post a blog entry*
FOSS is DEAD
Point us all to the schedule that they're behind on, please.
provided without basic functionality
This is the release for developers, so people can play around with the platform and start porting apps. As far as I can tell, the consumer release comes later.
No! Lies! Hateful lies! You must be an M$ shill, working behind the our back to fail us!
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence, as the saying goes. You're about as incompetent a twat as they come.
You can't even find any real reasons to hate the OpenMoko, and have to resort to arguments based upon a false premise, i.e. the schedule, that you've never even seen.
Next time, pick on how the phone itself looks like shit, or the wanky orange theme, or the lack of 3G support. You're so shit a hater you need a FOSStard like me to help with you arguments.
FOSS is DEAD
As much as you'd love it to be. No.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item...
No, it is THE mass consumer release:
http://www.openmoko.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko
I have no idea what you're referring to. Are you, by chance, implying that FIC and its "community" are actively hating the production process, or that they're merely incompetent?
I don't hate the OpenMoko, I merely point out that it is an utter failure, like the rest of FOSSware and FOSS processes.
FOSS is DEAD.
Btw: please work on your reading comprehension abilities, you seem inable to comprehend neither implicit not explicit intent.
Oops, sorry, mixed you and Gez, please ignore the sidenote.
Nope, I meant Gez.
.troll - I've reread the previous blog entry, and sorry, I've also meant you.
I'll try to be clearer from now on:
.troll - you are a stupid fuck. If a product cannot provide basic functionality, it is not ready for be sold on the open market. If you'll actually read the link in LH's post, you'll see that basically, the reviewer implies that OpenMoko is a useless piece of plastic.
Let me reiterate - .troll - you are a stupid fuck.
Thanks for reading, and have a good day!
OpenMoko is going to be a dismal failure. And do you know why? It isn't purely because the technology that they're producing will be low quality dogcrap. It's because it's incompatible with the way that the mobile market works. There are basically four groups of people that need to be considered: (1) mobile phone manufacturers, (2) mobile phone carriers, (3) consumers, and (4) devs. OpenMoko douchebags are pretending that (2) mobile phone carriers don't exist in this market. But they really carry the most weight.
Here's why. Mobile phone carriers earn money by providing services (eg. air time, SMS, ringtones, data, applications, etc). They want to earn money at the highest possible point in the food chain; in other words, they want to sell you things that THEY provide: their apps, their ringtones, etc. They want a closed archtiecture. They have ZERO interest in opening up their architecture to apps written by 3rd parties. Why? Because, 3rd party apps would do obvious things like trying to work around SMS messaging limits/charges by sending via TCP/IP. Hint: Carriers earn a TON of money from messaging. So, they're not going to open up their architecture to 3rd parties. The carriers like things the way they are, and no amount of "pressure" from FOSS zealots is going to make them slit their own financial throats.
So, let's say that Motorola and others come out with an OpenMoko phone. Do you know what will happen? Simple. Mobile carriers will not buy it, will not offer it to consumers. It doesn't matter how much they whine, wring their hands, write their Congressmen, write "open letters" (gotta love that one) to the companies involved. Money is money. Freedom is the ability to earn and spend money. The FOSS retards don't get these dynamics at all. Those few that DO get the dynamics seem to believe that the effort of making an open platform will encourage enough mobile manufacturers to adopt the architecture that mobile carriers will have no choice. But that's not the way that markets work. The mobile carriers are the CUSTOMERS. They will not adopt an architecture unless they can control how its deployed and secured. Given a choice between OpenMoko and Windows Mobile, they'll actually decide to go with Windows Mobile, because Microsoft will do exactly what the carriers want.
If OpenMoko folks want to succeed, they will need to understand that they're not going to be able to call themselves Open anymore. That's reality. Big disconnect.
Why not? All the reviews say it lacks functionality, and the thing is only available from their website or a few online resellers. The only people who know about it are geeks, and the only ones interested in buying one are geeks wanting to hack on the platform.
No, it is THE mass consumer release:
Hardly, it's not available through any major carriers, anywhere. Tom raises an excellent point on whether this will ever be generally available: carriers don't like openness.
@ Tom:
LIS, I have the feeling that FOSS dumbfucks have a different understanding of what "market ready" means.
That depends on the market. As you pointed out, OpenMoko is aimed mostly at geeks who value software Freedom; therefore the tenet of release early, release often is a good thing. Or to put it in your language: the target market of the OpenMoko is FOSStards.
Whether the target market is big enough is a different discussion. However, you're mixing up horizontal markets with vertical ones. Tom and LIS, you are both arguing from the stand-point of the phone not being ready for 'Joe average' but that is not the target market. This is also why I describe it as a release for developers only.
The OpenMoko was supposed to be released at september 2007:
Ah yes, you are correct. I wouldn't call moving the date of release back to upgrade the hardware indicitive of a failure of this project, or FOSS in general, though.
There are more valid reasons to attack the project, Tom mentioned one of them: where are the carriers? Plus the other things I noted above (ugly UI, ugly hardware and what not).
Overall, this is an interesting experiment to see whether there are enough FOSStards out there willing to invest in the OpenMoko (and the extra hassle in setting it up with a carrier). However, this is not a mass consumer release, it is for developers, only they know -- or care -- about the project.
Releasing utter crap -- early and often -- isn't a recipe for success, no matter who your target market is.
Or to put it in your language: the target market of the OpenMoko is FOSStards.
That's an awfully small market.
Whether the target market is big enough is a different discussion. However, you're mixing up horizontal markets with vertical ones.
No, I'm not mixing them up. I'm simply saying that vertical markets don't matter that much. Horizontal markets are fundamental Earth-movers.
Tom and LIS, you are both arguing from the stand-point of the phone not being ready for 'Joe average' but that is not the target market. This is also why I describe it as a release for developers only.
Agree. In other words, it's irrelevant to the vast number of people on Earth. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it...
Exactly. :-D
Creating a cellular phone, especially when it is scratch build - OS, software stack, hardware, etc. Is an extremely expensive endeavor - we're talking about tens of millions of dollars, at the least; if FIC wouldn't have thought they'll see a return on that kind of investment, they wouldn't have made it in the first place - FIC is a for-profit company.
The point was - FIC thought they could leverage the FOSS community, and use it as a mean to lower their research and QA costs - that was the first phase - the neo1973 developer kit.
The current phase is the freeRunner, THE mass market consumer release - it is not a developers' toy - it is the real deal.
If you're followed the development of the phone, you'll see that they first started with gtk - the community based development framework, and just before the launch date switched to the commercially developed Qt software stack - it means that:
1. The gtk toolkit is not good enough for mobile phone and real-time development.
2. The assumption that using FOSS components can reduce costs if faulty.
The end result is a product that took far more time to create than planned, released with broken utility, and generally, is a complete an utter failure. Using existing propriety software - like Qt, Windows mobile, Symbian (which is now open source, but is crap at general), would have cut down costs, reduced R&D time, and might have gotten them to the market on time, rather than being delayed for an almost full year (which is an eternity in the cellular phone industry).
The current phase is the freeRunner, THE mass market consumer release - it is not a developers' toy - it is the real deal.
Heh, it looks like a dev release to me, but that's really what you're getting at: not ready for general use. I also read in a few places that this is a developers release, but that was probably Internet mis-information, spread by Freetards to cover up the failings of the phone.
[...] switched to the commercially developed Qt software stack [...]
This seems to be pushing an agenda, QT benefits from being dual-licensed. Obviously Trolltech (Nokia now, right?) have achieved a useful symbiosis with the FOSS community, otherwise they'd make QT only available under a commercial license.
Also look at the desktop: KDE4 is developed on the commercial developed QT software stack, but that certainly does not make it magically better than Gnome. I'm sure both are shit in your opinion, but that point is moot.
1. The gtk toolkit is not good enough for mobile phone and real-time development.
I don't think this is true, Nokia have successfully used GTK on the 770 and the N800, and Ubuntu Mobile is based on GTK.
2. The assumption that using FOSS components can reduce costs if faulty.
But they are still using FOSS components.
Whether a FOSS project is backed by a non-profit foundation, or a for-profit company has no relevance here.
would have cut down costs, reduced R&D time, and might have gotten them to the market on time,
That's quite a logical leap there!
KDE4's problems have nothing to do with the QT framework layer, so I'm not sure why you're trying to sully QT. Perhaps you think that associating a commercial solution with THE SUCK negates the assertion that commercial solutions are better. You're gonna need to try harder than that. KDE4 has been poorly received because the developers simply failed to understand users' needs and, instead, went off in their own direction; basically, telling users to fuck off, they didn't need users.
I believe the phone would suck, no matter what framework it was built using.
Google announced today the 1 trillionth URL index.
Coincedence ? I think not, pinky.
I'm off to dick a whore, bye all.
Do it for all the lusers in their mommy and daddy's basements, unable to get laid because they've prioritized dicking around with their shitty FOSS software. And, let's face it, ass is not free as in beer.
I'm sure if you went to fosscon/linux world expo, you'd find free ass..
but it'd be only limited to one gender of course.
So you'd prefer both genders?
*Burned an Audio CD using Brasero
*Resized pictures using Gimp
*Organized my music using Rhythmbox
*Talked to my friends online using Pigeon
*Worked from home using network-manager-vpnc
*Watched Youtube videos using Firefox
*Bought music online using Amazon MP3 downloader
HAHAHAHA !
What a pathetic luser.
*Played Morrowind and Oblivion each for several days straight with 100+ FPS and nary a crash or slowdown.
*Listened to my extensive music library consisting of multiple different audio file formats(AAC, MP3, mpc, WMA) without having to fuck with multiple codec packages
*Enjoyed hardware mixing support with my sound card
*Watched Flash videos, and didn't endure a crash in Firefox, which happens daily in linux (even on 32 bit)
*Was actually able to make useful documents in MS Office that have consistent formatting
* Listened to mp3's without having to fuck with multiple codec packages.
* Watched shit loads of porn online, wmv's, MPEG's, Flash etc. no crashes and all videos work fine.
* For work: LAMP coding, working remotely using Gnome's ability to mount SFTP shares and Gvim/Gedit, edited design comps using Inkscape, edited logos using Gimp.
* Worked collaboratively with WinTards who're using Office, exchanged .doc and .xls documents seamlessly.
* Read LHblog while sitting on the shitter, using wireless that has always worked.
Yeah, yeah, works for me. But then I don't sell Linux as being the greatest thing since the creation of the universe. Just use whatever the fuck fits what you want to do.
It's actually the rest of that idiot's blog that's offensive, he's being a total twat. For example:
If .NET is so shit, why is Miguel developing Mono on Linux? Including a copy of the Visual Studio IDE!
I use Gimp all the time, and it's fucking shit. It's not a matter of where the buttons are, it's just inefficient to use. Particularly the number of dialog boxes you need to go through just to save a damn file for the Web. It just about covers my needs though, just.
OpenOffice is bloated and lacks basic features, like OTF support. I saw first-hand how the devs of OpenOffice deal with bugs too. It's divide and conquer, Sir Humphrey Appleby style. They split the bugs up, to decrease the number of votes for each one and obfuscate the issue.
Outlook: his answer is to export data from it. Fuck off, where's the Exchange replacement? And what does he propose to do about Evolution sucking balls?
He suggests buying a new graphics card, but I have a laptop with an integrated card. Luckily it works fine, even if it is an ATI card, but it's a shame so many people are left out in the cold by the shitiness of the X windowing system.
I don't think using Linux is bad, if it does everything you want it to do, but arguing it's perfect, and being a confrontational gazelle's scrotum with it, is just lame.
/nonspecificrant.
True words of wisdom!
I love the way the sharms.org guy used the US economy in a "It doesn't work because you don't need it [quicken]" argument.
And people talk about the Apple reality distortion field.
Coca Cola and Pepsi don't share their source code/recipes, and no more McDonald's until you can download the source for the secret sauce.
Thus, the free software movement is born. A bunch of people (that can't program very well) got together, and produced Linux. Now, Stallman gets to play with all of that crappy Linux code. Serves him right!
http://www.xchat.org/windows/
http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercas...
Being "shut out" of the open source community and out of linux is *exactly* what they want. They want to sell their stuff in unmodified form, the way they designed, it to their real customers, not morons who'll take their creation and tack on a broken interface, thereby making the company look bad.
http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary.html...
http://awurl.com/vxbfis145681
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Open_source
I think you'll find that this shits all over your humour attempt
Also a picture of one penguin mascot bending another one over would be good. Particularly if it was an animation, with one penguin's groin moving and the other one's eyes popping.
Perhaps some satire, like a Linux Support Staff flowchart, including: 'OMG RTFM!' as the first step and ending with, 'Works for me!'
That Uncyclopedia article reads like a shit blog post bashing Linux, it's too literal, re-hashes tired FUD and has too many unfunny criticisms shoe-horned in. Franly, Linux Hater has come up with much better stuff than that.
By the way, I switched from DEB to RPM and it made my dick six inches longer! Based on this, there is definitely merit in making that move, even if you do end up in dependency hell.
You should write one of these articles yourself. Your article would be awesome for sure!!
Fucking right I am.
Your article would be awesome for sure!!
Correct.
Haha I like how he implies that if your video card *doesn't* work well in Linux it's not a "real" video card. I guess I should throw out my X800. :-( Well, I probably should anyway since it's a bit on the old side, but I rarely game, anyway.
ROFLMAO!
It's about time a site just says it like it is. If for anything these quips for some laughs after the 10:1 Windows vs. *nix dogpile ratio on hardware forums.
...Sends the admin a six pack of ice cold beer (and a coupon for 3 year rabies vaccine, as the rabid fanbois love to byte...oops...bite!)...
Can you tell me where the party's at?
New Linux is shit.
And old Linux, shat.
“Just kidding. I clicked the trash can 50 times. After I finished clicking, the nautilus windows took a couple seconds to finish loading, and only one stopped responding. Fortunately, it came back to life after about three seconds, and the windows continued on loading.”
Clicking the trash can multiple times in Fedora only opens the trash can window once. I guess like Windows, Fedora is smart enough to know that it is senseless to open multiple instances of the same window looking at the same folders.
Don't worry I filed that bug on bugzilla, should be fixed... you know, "Eventually"
Darien: maybe Fedora is using a slightly newer version of Gnome than Ubuntu. Just a thought, I don't care enough to look it up. :)
theres more about that here:
is Foxconn sabotaging Linux?
(warning - highly technical):
http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary.html...
Linux users are a bunch of paranoid, arrogant, annoying motherfuckers.
FOSS is DEAD
And yet, the guy who found there's no conspiracy is a Linux user. So we're obviously not all as bad as you imply.
Speaking as a Linux user, it has always seemed to me that this guy acted like a complete cock, unfortunately many in the community supported him.
His mistake was to make grand, sweeping and incorrect assumptions, just like you're doing now.
FOSS is DEAD
I certainly hope not. If it were, what would you have to complain about?
It really IS the year of the Linux desktop!
http://www.howarddarkes.com/photos/linuxposter.jpg
dude some OS' will have their flaws... windows is nice *cough* if u got a quad core unit and like 2 gigs of ram... and lets see... o yeah! the HD version of the 8800 video card! i am doing the same thing with MUCH less pwr! 800 mhz of pwr baby and a flash based HD which is nice for the OS to sit on!
I have an old PC I use for testing that has a Duron 1200, 256 MB of RAM, a HD of 20 GB and a old SiS chipset. Not only XP runs much better and has a smaller footprint than any linux distro (including 'light' distros like VectorLinux), the half baked drivers for the graphic adapter radraws the windows very slowly and puts all the work on the processor.
So much for the famous support for legacy computers.
I think you should work for MS, as Puppy Linux comes in at 88mb and if youve managed to get XP smaller than that youre in the wrong job.
Why do people have to tell lies when making silly remarks?
from linux.com review:
Like every distro, Puppy has its own quirks and twists. On my systems Puppy 3.00's desktop user interface behaves abnormally after prolonged use.
Where have I heard this before.
Most common are the gray areas left by windows and menus after being closed.
that's new
Another minor irritant is the lack of file associations.
handy
One major pitfall in Puppy is that you only get one shot at saving files at shutdown.
nice
You don't have to try them all dude, it's all the same shit. So your shit takes up less disk, what a progress.
Somehow these guys simply don't get it. We don't want 500 minesweepers, different desktops, smaller footprints, freedom do dump it in Africa, freedom to look inside other people's code or hear Root Mean Square's BS. We just want it ... to work.
This is different from Apple iPhone and OSX users who have full blown narcissistic personality disorder.
They make the windows enthusiasts seem rather benign with their Down Syndrome..
If your computer use has EVER, even once, prevented you from getting laid you probably have at least ~some~ of the personality traits of Aspergers.
I bet that includes everyone either reading or posting on this blog.
Yes, you want to be careful to avoid offending the hordes of women who are undoubtedly spending Friday night reading anti-Linux blogs.
How can the Foxconn issue be included here? As for GCompris, they have made their own decision. And their software is perhaps the best educational software for children right now- has made it cross platform- it is his choice as to what he will charge. Otherwise just download the source and compile on Windows- and you can get it for free.
Try more piercing posts about real matters that allow Linux users to have a sheepish laugh at themselves. Like the KDE or Gnome or Nvidia posts. Or let the original author return.
Do not worry about the "FOSS community " being livid; most of the FOSS community, and Linux users all are used to being completely ignored. Most of the times, it is not disabling features, it is total non support for Linux or FreeBSD platform.
At least GCompris gives the full featured program, and also the source code if you can compile, for free.
As I said, there is a lot to criticize the Linux zealots for, especially whern they try to stuff their world domination pipe-dreams on others. However, GCompris licensing or the Foxconn issue does not belong there.
"But, as this is free software, there is hope that this will be fixed eventually."
Isn't that a typo? free is spelled proprietary. You know some examples, Vista, MobileMe, MaybePlays, Pick an AV program. The first version of paid software is rarely good, it just has to get to market so it can be fixed later.
"In order to promote the use of GNU/Linux, the windows version has a limited number of activities."
You're right, let's follow the MS SOP, not release it for anything else, or go the extra mile to make sure it won't work on anything else.
I do agree on the "what I did today" story. That was pretty lame.
Thanks, yet again, for the collection of links and pointing out the ironies.
On the reverse site, if people dont want the pretty Vista that requires 10 times more processing power to run than it should, fine let them have their Vista.
Its called freedom of choice, you cant sway a Linux user with your rants any more than I could sway you with mine. To be honest this is all a little immature and certainly pointless.
I personally think both systems have merit depending on the application. "The right tools for the right job" seems very apt in this debate, and I certainly switch between two OS's on a daily basis. As much as I would like to, I cannot quite give up Windows yet, but Im getting there and if I had to choose between which OS Id certainly take a Linux Distro over Windows.
I dont think Ill bother to debate any further with you now.
There would be no reaching a Microsoft Fanboy.
This tolerance evaporates to zero when you have something you actually want to accomplish with your computer, including software development.
What's ironic about FOSStard's concept of "freedom" is that the largest growth rates in Linux usage are occurring in developing nations -- such as China -- where political oppression is greatest and individual liberties are weakest. FOSS hasn't made their people "free". It has only enabled dictators to erect tighter controls over what their people can see, read, and publish. The money that they would have spent on computing infrastructure can now be diverted to more weapons, more soldiers, more police, more prisons, more financing for hacking efforts, more regulation of individuals, etc. In other words, the real FREEDOM -- you know, the kind that adults really value, such as the right to vote, speak, and share ideas -- is something that FOSS can't deliver. It's a farce. They talk about "freedom" when they really mean "shitty source code".
Add ... and argue on this FOSStard website to the list
a) does the same as Vista, i.e., it fucking works. Linux is not even on the same league. It's pure crap.
b) does not require hardware from a specific vendor (unlike Leopard)
tneh we'll see if it requires ten times more power than it should.
Ive written a massive post about it:
http://www.sudoaptitude.com/2008/07/why-i-hate-...
Its people like you that give Linux a bad name
.... Ehr, no, it's crap software that is portrayed as if it's the front door to enlightenment.
why would you trash something that people put HOURS of work into slaving over a hot monitor and then giving it for free? is it not good enough for you?
You basically answered this one yourself
Good luck with your new blog, hopefully you attract the attention you planned for.
As opposed to a company that is in business to not make money? Most of your FOSS companies are experts in that department.
Google doesn't really give back to the community anything which they're building their business on.
LH himself does not bash this -- morons in the comments on his blog are different, of course -- he bashes the zealotism surrounding Linux. The self-appointed sages and wanna-be marketers selling Linux like it's the next wonder drug are his targets.
I have been worrying for some time that FOSS users in general have become like the most arrogant Mac zealots. You know, the one's who comment 'get a Mac' on any negative article about non-Apple hardware. The appearance of the Linux Hater confirms my suspicions.
The reason, and correct me if I'm wrong, for the we hate Linux, and you should too tagline is that, with a little hate, Linux could improve. The current situation, where most Linux users are self-affirming, is about as useful as a room full of yes-men.
We should have real free software, where people are able to critique it without being fobbed-off by lines like: 'works for me.' or 'patches welcome.'
I hate to break it to you, but maybe you should check out this article about Trusted Computing, and what your precious Linux kernel contains:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing
" The Linux kernel has included trusted computing support since version 2.6.13, and there are several projects to implement trusted computing for Linux. In January 2005, members of Gentoo Linux's "crypto herd" announced their intention of providing support for TC — in particular support for the Trusted Platform Module.[21] There is also a TCG-compliant software stack for Linux named TrouSerS, released under an open source license."